MANY Questions and stuff by Ecconia

by @Ecconia2 years ago (edited6 months ago)

Hello, @Jimmy @Pipe

I consider myself to be a member in your community since beginning of this week. How did that happen?

-> I would like to tell you my impressions of the old and new game and this community, how I got to it and ask some questions related to the soon™ release of Version 1.

Contents: - STORY-PART
Not relevant, but hopefully nice to read.
- VERY-IMPORTANT: Questions
Please answer at least these question, they may even be very release-V1-relevant
- LESS-IMPORTANT: Questions
Here I ask about several minor features and things
- LEAST-IMPORTANT: Ideas and opinions
This section contains opinions to certain already discussed things and gives you some ideas for other things to add

Since the post is limited to 20K character, I splitted it up into several comments. Looks okay imo. And your answers (if any) will be at the right place :)

~Ecconia


22 comments
@Ry2 years ago

look BOLD!

@Ecconia2 years ago

STORY-PART:

I heard about this game like, well at least last year or before. I don’t know why but I didn’t consider it much - maybe I was busy, or the graphics didn’t seem to be tasty back then. I downloaded the game but never got into it, or tbh I don’t recall ever trying it in a proper way.

As many/some from your community I am from the MC-Redstone community, thats also how/why I heard from your game. I have been building redstone since many many years and in the last let it be 4 years I barely did much, occasionally I built things. But it decreased a lot. I always tried to find some alternative, let it be logisim or some other 2D simulator, but nothing could statisfy me. It always brought me back to Redstone. I even recall seeing some of your preview videos of LW, but didn’t got triggered.

However at the beginning of this week some of my Redstone-Friends had been talking about @Mr_IO who was actually a beta tester of this game. I forgot the exact thing which happened, but that ḱind of triggered me. I went to your website and saw that evil discord button. I used it and it was all over. My life was -again- ruined.

I got greeted by a neat and tidy discord with a bunch of recognizable members. As appropriate of a good community I got greeted <3, thats always such a nice way to enter somewhere. Apparently I also watched some beta videos, and these did catch me. The game looked so nice in them… Hopes up I would totally instantly robbed someone of his beta copy (at that point in time) to try it.

I got an instant reply from @Gnog about beta, nice thing, thanks Gnog. I was not yet convinced to play the older version TUNG. I apparently had a version downloaded in April last year in my download folder already :O I gave it a try!

First version 2.6 with the annoying tTyyppiinngg bug, but working stacking. It was a horrible first (or second) experience, I instantly had to make a list of things which didn’t work and dump them into the discord chat. But I didn’t stop, my goal was to build a simple base converter.

A 3D logic simulator which only has inverters and diodes, I was at home (cause in MC its the same stuff). But one of my biggest enemies, signals which cannot be travel long distances without delay, was not there! I had instant freedom!

The first thing I finished that evening was a 7 segment display, my base converter needed some input. Next thing was a simple bi-directional shift register. While building these I understood the way the game was controlled more and more and I got used to it.

In the discord chat, Jarvi and Nano greeted me - yay known ppl - I knew these two from the Redstone community, what a nice thing. It happened that it was easy to talk to your community, soon I could take part.

Can you belive it, even the developer himself - Jimmy - welcomed me, that sooo nice. I mean where do you have a game where the developers are so close to the players of it?? He also answered my question quickly and properly. Very nice. What is this developer like? A social man (or a business oriented schemer)?

By the time I finished my input device with a base converter, I understood most of the game’s control to get basic stuff done. I also switched to version 2.7 which did relieve me from the horrible typing bug, bruh who needs stacking when you can clone? Like others I pasted images and boards into the discord, which resulted in members liking it.

That developer, I had speaking of, personally said he likes it - he does that with many builds. Saying that he likes them in some way. Thats very social. I love when the game heads are so close to their users. That makes the game special. Also it gives the users some kind of control feeling that they can touch the game and not just use it.

… many things happened …

You gained a new member in your community who is not very willed to leave again (If pepe stays in the memes channel, that is. Else I might, jk). This member would love to make a screenshot of his build whenever he places something and writes a paragraph about it, this member is spammy, writes long and often… But he tries to keep chat clean and shuts his trap when its too much.

@JimmyDeveloper2 years ago

I am so happy that you have felt welcomed by our community. It is a pleasure to have you, and I look forward to many more discussions :)

@Ecconia2 years ago (edited6 months ago)

MORE-IMPORTANT-PART: (Reaction to LW)

I already learned a lot about this game, but I was not statisfied with my knowledge, so I read all development blogs on Friday and watched the linked youtube videos. I already had questions, but one should only ask once he did read all information.

Do you know Factorio? Its some nice 2D game, I played it a lot and still play it. But the game itself is not the most special part, its the development team and the way they do things.
-> They are aproachable by using their self-hosted forum. Its a great entry point to get in touch with them. The good point about forums is you have a place where you can sort and group information also change their state my moving the one-topic threads into different sub-forums. However I don’t like the forums as a communication tool, thats where discord comes into play. Its a perfect tool for simple communication, and it is very awesome that you the developers are using it too to get in touch with us and that not too few! Glade you are there!
-> They also do have a mod portal, with kind of mods and so on. They offer all members (website-account) to create mods and upload them there (its lua and one can link github links). But the nice thing is, that mods can be downloaded via an ingame gui, which is something I totally recommend for you. But one is also able to download the mods on thier mod website normally. Its possible to enable/disable mods from ingame (if they are in the mods folder), but applying mods takes one restart. On server join with non-matching mods, one can let the game restart with the right mod-set enabled.
-> What they however lack is a place to upload boards or they call it blueprints which are an essential part of your and their game. Its nice that you will make one, be sure to allow the community to #tag the type of board and somehow to moderate #tags maybe by some moderators.
-> Point is a game such as theirs and yours with some type of meeting-place for members are very nice and enjoyable. (Their community is waay bigger, which sadly also leads to less contact between some members). In your community its still under 300 afaik, which means one is able to learn the name of the most active users, makes something like a big family - cool thing.
-> What I am trying to say: You are on the right way with your community interaction and services! (Unlike some annoying other games…)

@Vykori2 years ago

the last plan I heard from Jimmy is they wanted a way to install mods from an in-game browser (so they wouldn’t have to write 2 interfaces for the same mod portal). I’m not sure if this is still the plan considering the unexpected time crunch for releasing the game

The board sharing platform has lots of plans for sorting stuff, I don’t remember if user-generated tags are one of them, but I don’t expect finding things to be an issue :D

I also love how intractable the community is, especially at it’s current size. I hope it doesn’t get worse as the community grows

@JimmyDeveloper2 years ago

Glad you approve! We’re hoping to have an in-game GUI for downloading mods/boards/ect, but it might not make it in for 1.0.

@Ecconia2 years ago (edited6 months ago)

VERY-IMPORTANT: Questions

-> If I am not directly asking a question, I expect some form of confirmation or your thoughts on it. -> Ofc only if you want to. This is a big post which takes some time to get thru.

Buy process: - The game will cost 12$ on your website, so I assume that the conversion to € is something depending on the payment method and not in your control, is that correct? Steam is as you said 10€ constant.
- Everything regards the actual buy process is properly explained to in the TermsOfUse, which is good. But since I don’t trust Steam - it could shut down suddenly or become unable to use and since they want a share, I would love to buy the game on your website. However this comes with the point, that I cannot trust you (I would love to, but computers and bad humans, you know - not your fault). Your TermsOfUse declare, that if my account gets deleted or breaks for any reason I loose the license to use the game. Since you are humans, I would assume you finding a way of compensating. One thing I recomment herefor is to send a confirmmation email to the users which they can use in some form as proof of buying, if you are not doing that already. But such an email is ofc only meaningfull, if some relevant information or even purchase ID is included (or even real-name to use the countries ID).
My other idea is simple and easy, if one has bought the game on the website, let them unlock it on Steam (games like Factorio allow this). I don’t know how this works, but I would beg you to implement this. Since you allow the linking of steam to your website already (I did that), maybe you already know how this works.
But be careful, this should only work once, per license obtained per account. Also there must be a different flag for bought on this website and owns the game cause its on steam - obviously, no need to tell you, you are capable man :)
I am just unsure how the situation should be handled, if a steam user links his game to the website and then deletes the website account and wants to create a new one with linking. I guess you can store this stuff nicely in a DB and check if the link exists already/still… But this is for you to figure out.
- From your terms of use I read that you will supply continuous updates for the game on the website. Ofc this is not relevant for steam players. But it would be cool if you add an ingame update mechanism which is opt-in (confirm before each update). Also you should supply direct-download to the current version on the main page of your website for logged in users.

Multiplayer/Network: - I read that you have the whole simulation running on the server, so I assume besides world edits all user interactions are sent to the server and the server answers with updates in wires and components? Well this way there won’t be any desync. Sounds fine.
- Will there be a chat, maybe even voice?
- Protection against custom clients/servers validate data?
- In some comment of the dev-blog hole punching has been mentioned. Which makes me unrelated to that wonder, is the game running on UDP or TCP. (I assume the easy TCP). Btw do you already have a default port in mind?
- Hmm you explained that for the local connection you currently are using std-in/out. Sounds fun (and minor inefficient, but okay, if there is no other way). But for network connections there is the important question: Is or will there be encryption, preventing attacks, spying and interception? Which? (With your authentification server you are able to setup something decent, RSA 4069 + AES 256). I rather not have unencrypted chat or sign-text floating thru the internet.

Usernames/Serverconnections:
- I assume the ingame username is the same as the account name on the website. Now there are users on Steam which have no website account, but their steam name. You could allow that they just use the steam name, but this may lead to name-clashes. I wonder how you want to handle these cases… One way is to require a website account nevertheless or (like Factorio did it later on) to allow some form of temporary accounts for steam users - I sadly don’t know the details about this. But I guess you can think of one way or another. I just wanted to implant the idea in your head.
- How does the login procedure work? Does it just ask for the name when you want to play the game? Well names are not visible in single-player so it won’t matter. But in online multiplayer games one has to at least be logged in. When does this process happen (On game start? On multiplayer join?)? You mentioned some validation process, when does that one happen, when are connections to your server for this created?
- What happens with the ingame buttons, if a user is not logged in. If a user has no internet? Is there any downside from downloading the game and run it on an never ever online machine?
- Not that I want to, but is it possible once the game is registered/unlocked to prevent all connections to your server? (Except essential services like for example: online server validation before multiplayering, intentional browsing of mods or boards.

@pipe01Developer2 years ago

Is or will there be encryption, preventing attacks, spying and interception?

I think not, since it would be more computationally expensive for not much gain, most data is harmless anyway. That said, we may add encryption to only chat messages, or even to all packets if it turns out that it doesn’t have much impact. Regardless, mods will be able to mod in their own transport method, meaning they can add an encryption layer on top of our network system.

@Ecconia2 years ago

If a mod would add an encryption level onto the LW network stack that would come hand in hand with a second authentification service. Since without a third party in that network encryption Man-In-The-Middle attacks are still possible. Your authentification server could be such a third party in the encryption system. But mods should not provide something essential like another authentification service.

@Ecconia2 years ago

What I consider decent encryption:

I would love the whole network traffic of LW to be encrypted. To prevent anyone from reading or modifying any data in that. Companies even governments have interest in reading data. Some providers intentionally even change data to place advertising (more web-related, but a thing!). Modifying attacks could be issues by proxy-servers which abuse for example a misspelled domain. So there should also be a Man-In-The-Middle (MITM) prevention.

Fun fact, your website is using some very similar concept - for all data.

Parties: C = Client ; S = Server ; A = Authentication Server (third party)

  • Both Client and Server generate a RSA key-pair of at least size 2048, but due to raising computer power 4096 is more appropriate (even Google started switching to 4096). This is a time expensive step, which should be performed as early as possible (game start) and run asynchronously.

  • C wants to connect to S, one sends handshake, both exchange their public RSA keys. From now on everything is encrypted with the slow to use RSA keys. As long as no MITM is present, only these two can read the messages from now on.

  • Either of the two generates a new Synchronous AES (256bits) key and sends it to the other party. Both use that fast to use key from now.

The problem is that a MITM could have read this connection from the beginning and just exchanged a public key with his own. Thus he is able to do whatever he wants. To prevent this one Server or Client (or both) send their public key or a hash of it to the Authentication server. (Since your servers don’t have accounts, its likely only the Client who will do this).

C sends the server (even before using symmetric keys) his UUID which is known to A. Thus A can lookup what the hash of the public key of C is and refuse or accept this connection. The effect only properly registered clients can join a server. This is however just one direction. So the server can be sure its a valid client, but not the other way round. One way to fix this issue is for example: C sending the hash of S’s public key to A too. A keeps the connection open, until S has also connected A. When both match it responds to both, that they are the right parties.

A proxy has no chance now, it may exists, but unless it cracks the RSA or AES keys it won’t have access to the actual data. As long as the packets sent are not too obvious.

There might be other or better ways to archive the same effect of security. But this is how I would do it. (Considering, that the servers have no account, so only some matching thing helps here.) My idea however may not be directly usable if one account opens multiple connections at a time.

Well I have no clue why I wrote this down. Since ya could have googled that if you didn’t knew it already :) Maybe you find an even better system~

Just don’t let mods handle this… Lazy users don’t want to opt-in this: Ey could you install that encryption mod please? - Bruh, no don’t want to create another account.

@JimmyDeveloper2 years ago

Buy process

The game will cost 12$ on your website, so I assume that the conversion to € is something depending on the payment method and not in your control, is that correct? Steam is as you said 10€ constant.

You’ve got that correct. On our website we are only selling the game in USD ($12). Steam will have regional pricing, where the Euro price is €10.

I would love to buy the game on your website. However this comes with the point, that I cannot trust you (I would love to, but computers and bad humans, you know - not your fault). Your TermsOfUse declare, that if my account gets deleted or breaks for any reason I loose the license to use the game. Since you are humans, I would assume you finding a way of compensating.

Yeah, it is extremely unlikely that this would happen. We back up our data a lot and we almost certainly would not lose record of your purchase. The only reason we’d have for deleting your account is if you were using logicworld.net as a platform to be nasty to other humans, which I really don’t see anyone doing.

It’s also of course good to remember that all versions of Logic World are DRM-free, so even if we did revoke your right to download the game you would still be able to play it.

From your terms of use I read that you will supply continuous updates for the game on the website. Ofc this is not relevant for steam players. But it would be cool if you add an ingame update mechanism which is opt-in (confirm before each update). Also you should supply direct-download to the current version on the main page of your website for logged in users.

When you buy Logic World from logicworld.net, you gain access to downloads of all versions of the game, past and future. When you buy on Steam, your game is automatically kept up-to-date with the latest version, but you can opt-in to use older versions.

It would be cool to have an auto-updater in the logicworld.net version, but probably more trouble than it’s worth.

Multiplayer/Network

I read that you have the whole simulation running on the server, so I assume besides world edits all user interactions are sent to the server and the server answers with updates in wires and components?

Correct

Will there be a chat, maybe even voice?

Text chat in 1.0, voice chat sometime after hopefully

Protection against custom clients/servers validate data?

We won’t have any of this in 1.0. Our vision of multiplayer – at least for this initial release – is that you’ll be playing with a small group of people whom you know and trust.

In some comment of the dev-blog hole punching has been mentioned. Which makes me unrelated to that wonder, is the game running on UDP or TCP. (I assume the easy TCP). Btw do you already have a default port in mind?

We use Lidgren for our networking, which is UDP. The default port is 6969, but this is of course configurable.

[security questions]

I’m not sure about these, perhaps @pipe01 can better speak to them?

Usernames/Server Connections

I assume the ingame username is the same as the account name on the website. Now there are users on Steam which have no website account, but their steam name. You could allow that they just use the steam name, but this may lead to name-clashes. I wonder how you want to handle these cases… One way is to require a website account nevertheless

This is what we’re doing. Our only form of online authentication is through logicworld.net, though you can have servers with online authentication disabled.

We’re hoping to set it up so that Steam users can create a logicworld.net account with a single button press.

How does the login procedure work? Does it just ask for the name when you want to play the game? Well names are not visible in single-player so it won’t matter.

Currently you just choose your name in the game settings. Not exactly sure how this is going to work, probably it’ll be your logicworld.net account name.

What happens with the ingame buttons, if a user is not logged in. If a user has no internet?

Nothing, Logic World is fully DRM-free.

Is there any downside from downloading the game and run it on an never ever online machine?

You can’t play multiplayer. Other than that, nope.

is it possible once the game is registered/unlocked to prevent all connections to your server?

There is no registering/unlocking process, Logic World is fully DRM-free :)

@Ecconia2 years ago

if one has bought the game on the website, let them unlock it on Steam (games like Factorio allow this)

Jimmy told me in VC, that this is a thing and yay thanks for that :)

@Ecconia2 years ago

I am particular interested in this steam-linking, when you have time and or thought about it, let me know :)

I want to download it on the website and also play it on steam. For the simple reason of more flexibility, not being dependent on steam is my first priority, but I also would love to use what steam has to offer.

@Ecconia2 years ago

LESS-IMPORTANT: Questions

-> I would be happy about answers and opinions in this section. But its not urgent and most stuff is probably also post-release or release-delaying.

Control: - As Jarvi suggested, flipping/mirroring of boards would be super cool, will you add that? If I am right you cannot mirror an object by just rotating it - intuitivly. - I quite didn’t get this point, does the search-lock has a possible keybinding? - Why not resize components on placement (signs buttons) like boards? One can take the duration of the mouseclick as a good deciding factor. When clicked -> place. When hold and dragged -> resize. Will the redundant components in the things-menu be removed (the ones with different sizes)? - Does the color picker support the input of #ccc? Cause that is also some valid format - for lazy ppl. Minor relevance is an input for comma separated values for the other color types (I saw this before, but I guess its not worth to add it, since the workarounds are easy).

Game: - Does the monospace zero differenciate from the letter O? Is there a dot in the middle of the 0 when the shapes are too similar? Are there other letters like ‘l’ and ‘I’ which are not nice to differenciate? - Is there still a plan for a history system (post-release)? And will it include: Placing; Removing; Resizing; Moving; (But not interacting)? - Will a board-export save who created it? (Not needed, but I am curious on what you think about this). - The fact that there are no thru-1t-delayer/blotters anymore shall be dumped on the fact that one probably can modify the thru-peg to an exclusive output? Wouldn’t that be some form of instant diodes (which there had been many discussions recently about) (and which probs would break the game logic)? Or do pegs stay pegs and there is no 1t way of piping signals thru the board? Is there a rule which elements shall get an exclusive output (Like it has to have at least 1t delay)? - Are the updates/ticks calculated in a syncoronized manner? Meaning, that per wire in one tick is just two states (on/off) and no situation in between? This would mean that a button can only emit clean signals of random tick duration and that in sync with all circuits. Why I wonder - since I heard that delayers can cut signals (and MC annoys the crap out of me, with its bad update rules). So does a delayer of 1 tick never cut any signal (cause all signals are at least 1 tick long)? - It should be able to toggle the decreasing over distance volume of singers and preferable maybe also an option to switch them between mono and stereo (if that is not already the case). For doubts, a client setting could prevent global singers, if someone abuses these toggles. I have been wondering, not that I care, but it should also be possible to pitch drumms. Well I leave the judging of this to ppl which intend to do music (not me). But the pitching of drums is kinda stuck in my head. Nvm me.

General: - What is a millimeter in the game, I read that 20m are 65 grid squares… I am confused. - How did rotation lock work in the past? Well since it was never usefull for me, no worry about removing it. - Is the input lag from the key-elemnt fixed? (Caused by Broyojo in the beta live-stream) - In the light render video I saw that the elements without any light was still not pitch dark and ambient lightening increased the brightness. How come this is the case, shouldn’t it be dark without ambient light? Since ambient light is like the only light which exists when no other light source is present. - I belive TUNG exported boards as some binary C# object format. You wrote that the new versions do that but with your own format or fbx, and something about an optional readable format. It would be cool if whatever binary or non-binary format you choose, to announce which it will be, if its your own make it open in a way that others can write parsers/generators for it. I guess I just gonna ask after V1 release again… - Saw (and read) that the flags have different width, so I thought of giving all a column of the widest one and centering all flags in that invisible column. But it actually in my opinion looks good already with all of them at the right side. (Probably my idea looks much worse).

SUCC: - One can escape # with #, but how does one escape a in front of a #. By using \? Did I miss it when skipping over the wiki. I was confused by this sentence: Note that does not escape any other control characters., so what escapes ? - I kinda consider this funny: There’s zero wasted space on formatting. yeah, if any number starting from 1 space can be used as intendation level, that is the case. But as soon as some user modifies that to be some higher number its already has more than zero wasted spaces! I originially wrote this cause the 4 spaces made me wonder why not use TABs. But I can guess the answer: Tabs are not friendly for all users. And having the option to use any intendation level and just comparing the levels is certainly user-friendly.

Modding: - I assume mod changes require to restart the game? - Will there be an ingame mod GUI (also asked in the Factorio section). - Do server and client exchange a list of game-changing mods when connecting which have to be the same? - Will there be pure only client and pure only server mods, which can run on any server client without bothering the other party?

@pipe01Developer2 years ago

I assume mod changes require to restart the game?

In most cases yes, however we might make it so that you can load mods at runtime but not unload (due to Unity not supporting a .NET feature that allows for this)

Will there be an ingame mod GUI (also asked in the Factorio section).

Yes, although possibly not for 1.0

Do server and client exchange a list of game-changing mods when connecting which have to be the same?

Yes, right now the client must have all the mods that the server has.

Will there be pure only client and pure only server mods, which can run on any server client without bothering the other party?

This is a great idea, I’ll try to make it work.

@Vykori2 years ago (edited2 years ago)

mirroring boards is something I’ve requested, as a beta tester. Unfortunately though, modded components don’t have to be mirror-symmetrical, which means you might not be able to mirror a board with modded components on it. So that’s something to be aware of.

But you can save boards as a human-readable .SUCC files, so I’m sure this community will make some tools for modifying (including mirroring) these boards automatically.

I also suggested the same method of component resizing that you did, and it’s possible to have board drawing behave that way already (although it’s bugged in current beta builds of the game) by just turning off the toggle functionality in your key bindings, which makes it click-and-drag. Only boards can be drawn to size though, other components have to be placed first, then resized after. Hopefully it can be added to other resizable components like labels and panel displays. Imma add a feature request rn. Ok it’s submitted.

through-pegs and relays (and any future components that have 2 linked inputs) cannot have 1 side turned exclusive. Well in current beta builds, you can, but it’s broken AF. Limitation of the simulation engine. When I was discussing this with jimmy, he noted that adding this functionality would slow down the simulation speed a lot, due to it’s current architecture.

I’m not sure what you mean with cutting signals, but I can verify that 1-tick delayers will transmit 1-tick pulses just fine. Buttons only output pure on/off.

Sound settings for singers are something jimmy talked about here: https://logicworld.net/Comment/747 apparently there’s limitations due to how singer sounds are currently implemented, or something. You can learn more by searching the discord server with in:#logic-world from:Jimmy#8080 singer

All pitch-able MIDI instruments are pitch-able in the Singer component. That includes some drum sounds, even the really ugly ones!

1 grid square is 30cm (which is weird) but most of the community measures in grid-sized cubes anyway. I’m the only one who converts to meters lol

rotation lock being turned on in TUNG is how logic world works now. Which is this: no matter how you turn your camera, components will be placed in the same orientation. In TUNG with rotation lock turned off, building stuff on walls was a real pain because components would be flipping around whenever your view crosses the horizon, which I personally found quite annoying. I did ask jimmy to add the setting back in LW, but he said it’s very difficult to (re)implement and he thinks building stuff without it is better.

activating hundreds of keys simultaneously still lags the game in current betas. But I know the devs plan to optimize the game more, for moments that lag the server in this way. (another way to cause the same lag is by cloning hundreds of boards simultaneously, like when building large display arrays). In any case, placing components inside each other during this lag is due to the order of placement validity checks, and is probably an easily-fixed bug. It’s definitely a known bug.

ambient light exists so you can build inside sealed boxes without being blind. I had suggested to make lighting stuff customizable, so you can be blinded if you want to. Now that the beta testers have access to a (still WIP) ticketing system for submitting bugs and feature requests, I’m currently submitting all my previous ideas as tickets. I’ve got way more tickets than anyone else right now, lol

TUNG exported boards are weird, but stenodyon wrote a translator program! you can find it in discord, along with other useful info about it. LW does already save boards in an already-announced and already-open format, succ! https://github.com/JimmyCushnie/SUCC unless you meant that the custom binary format should be open too, which idk if it will be. I think it’s fine to just save as SUCC if you need to edit it. Or use LW itself as a binary-to-succ converter when needed.

yes, servers and clients exchange mod info to verify compatibility. Idk if pure-client mods work on any server yet, but jimmy previously said in discord I definitely want you to be able to have clientside mods that don’t affect your ability to connect to servers so it’s something he’s aware of, and desires.

sidenote: I’m so happy we have another community member who posts lots of questions! I love this type of interaction, idk why. There’s another person on the steam community forums for this game who asks lots of questions too, if you want to read through it.

@Ecconia2 years ago (edited2 years ago)

cutting-signals

A 10 tick delayer does not accept a 9 tick pulse. But here I was mostly wondering if there is something shorter than 1 tick, but hopefully that is not the case. I don’t want another thing as buggy as Redstone.

this functionality would slow down the simulation speed a lot (exclusive pegs)

This functionality is very game/simulation breaking actually, I mean thats like relays with no switch tick delay -> Yay another Redstone. So no that should by no means be possible. So do we get a thu-board-1t-component? (Mainly for the exclusive-output like Blotters)

I’ve got way more tickets than anyone else right now, lol

Good that I am not a beta tester, consider this post already :P

I’m the only one who converts to meters lol

Why though :D I mean its pointless - but well there must be a reason why I asked, okay 30cm. Random scale slider in early development’s fault.

ambient light

Oh I messed this one up. There is also environment lightning. But still, without any environment or ambient the scene should be dark its like this though: https://youtu.be/Z2qQ596gM7s I was just curious why that is, its certainly working properly

Yes the there is a converter which stenodyon wrote, but yes its not working on linux - as is. It also uses the native CS way of reading that binary file. While I would prefer to use a different language -> Means I need the format of the binary file. And to be honest I would prefer to feed my parser (if I have to write one) normal binary boards, instead of using the game as convert.

lots of questions

Yeah I saw a lot of your question-attacks already, yes not alone! More QA on steam? Sounds good. I never bother to use Steam community stuff, since I don’t like the UI at all.

Oh no, now I have started with opening a second instance of this post already, just to respond to your answers. You have openings! Now imagine Jimmy: Reading my question, checking if you already answered it properly, else answering me.

PS: How the heck are you doing Quotation which doesn’t break the whole answer?

@Vykori2 years ago

Ah, delayers are currently still going through some re-work in the current beta builds. I won’t comment on the way delayers work yet, except for short delayers definitely don’t alter the signal in any way. Just delay. A string of single-tick delayers will preserve the signal without cutting or extending or any weird stuff.

So do we get a thu-board-1t-component?

The only through-components in the beta builds right now are inputs, pegs, and displays. No logic components right now.

Good that I am not a beta tester, consider this post already :P

I disagree, I love figuring out these details and discussing what’s best. Wish I was allowed to give you the game files lol. Although there are definitely lots of bugs right now… I can’t really play the game yet.

without any environment or ambient the scene should be dark

oh thanks for the video and explanation, sorry I misunderstood at first. Yeah I’m not sure why there’s still light visible in the very beginning of the video. @jimmy ?

I would prefer to feed my parser normal binary boards, instead of using the game as convert.

Same, but I’m not sure how possible this is. The succ format exists specifically for editing, the binary format exists specifically for saving/loading quickly. Using the formats in the oposite situations would complicate things more than the developers intended, so it might be very unnecessarily complicated. I hope saving/downloading boards as SUCC is very quick and easy, to avoid hassle with external tools.

Now imagine Jimmy: Reading my question, checking if you already answered it properly, else answering me.

Yeah that was unlucky timing lol, Jimmy started answering at the same time I did, I didn’t expect that

@Ecconia2 years ago

LEAST-IMPORTANT: Ideas and impressions

Things which bother me in TUNG: (Ordered by relevance) - No resizing of boards. - Not being able to move boards/components without loosing their wires. - A horrible board menu, which only reacts properly, when one is looking at some solid place. - (Due to modding not easy on linux) Lacking way to place many wires quickly. - Rotating boards when placing or moving is almost impossible to understand. It is not even consistent. Since it kind of is relative ot the board and not to the player. HORRIBLE. (Don’t you dare to leave it as is in LW). [Keys ‘XY’ should only rotate around XZ axis, while Keys ‘QW’ should always rotate around Z axis <- for example]. - As I described in a my last forum post, boards when importing are not sorted or nested by the underlining folder structure, in fact folders are completely ignored (Very mean of you). Read my idea: https://logicworld.net/Post/121 - No flipping of boards. (What Jarvi described in one comment). Flipping/Mirroring cannot be done by rotations! - Minor bugs like stacking not working, wires on snapping-pegs not consistent (is handy though, with 2 per peg) - History system to undo/redo every bit of change. If premium a tree-history. But may be an overkill feature.

Things in Version 1, which I am very happy about: Many wire placing; Resizing boards; Unicode rendering (For these guys: ←↓→↑); Keyboard input keys; Flipping single components;

-> Maybe one can see that the changes which I needed are mostly bug fixes and ease of use options. I am fine with having few components.


With Version 1 there are a lot of new things which take away A LOT of complexity of the game. There are features which I needed (some I still need) and features which are nice to have. I call them nice-to-have since I would be fine with a TUNG set of features. But why take less when you can have more. I am kind of a vanilla dude, I don’t like to enhance my gameplay, I love when vanilla has what I need and does a proper job. But yeah as I said I will gladly use these new things, if I want it more difficult I could go back to Redstone. Regards the new features I have a bunch of questions but these can be found in other places in this post. However there are some bigger groups of new features: - Some just fix the previously broken gameplay or improve the control of it. - Some take away building complexity: Pegs can be placed in a 3*3 grid per square and things can be placed at the side of boards. - Some take away logic complexity: DFF’s gates and relays. - Some just bring more possibility, such as lamps and keys and buttons.

If I would say Only TUNG is true!, I would clearly be upset about complexity removal. But hey: #challenge mode: Only TUNG stuff and things <- thats still possible. As in the game doesn’t change when one just doesn’t use the new things - great! The new components make the game very OP now. But hey its a big major update. Almost a new game, its okay. However for non-vanilla I also count console modding. I am not a guy who likes to use these things - while they are fascinating - as you said they are for power users. I would like to enjoy the vanilla game without console (and actually without mods), but only if not required. If I need a mod for things the vanilla game failed something. You will hear about it, if that is the case.

Multi-Bit-Wires: Yes, I would like multi-wires, but that applies to TUNG, where its a pain in the butt to wire up many things, with multi-wire placement I would not use them - probably. And having many wires looks cooler - except that when you have many wire crossings, multi-wires are more handy. I also vote for them to not be in the vanilla game - but keep the possibility for mods to easily add them. When implementing them I would probably go the logisim attempt, that is one splitter and a merger for free converting (however they may look) and components accepting normal and multi-wires and properly use them.

DRM-Free: Its awesome that the game will be DRM free. I used to play Minecraft and Factorio as a stolen or cracked version before I bought both. If one has free versions which can be shared via piracy, but the developer keeps adding new cool things (as well as only account-owner can use service feature), ppl will eventually buy it. Sounds cool to me. (But yes one should buy your game to use your services, where reasonable! -> Website is open, but game-included services are closed).

Multiplayer: Area permissions etc… You currently decided against having (area) permissions, there is only whitelist and as far as I understood a general permission to allow a member to build or not. I can understand that point and when its for yourself and at most friends that sounds totally fine. Backups may help there is one friend turns out to be a bad boi. This however may be confusing/unused for all the ppl which come from a MC-Creative-Server context, where players have their own areas. Looking of the current performance of the game many players are not possible anyway (lag when big builds and high tick rates). However your modding framework seems to have the power to intercept ALL form of interactions with the game-state (if not, it should!). Then you can just say let a mod do it which is totally fine, as long as the game efficiently plays along. You also would not have to care about creating abstract regions or just cubic ones and managing the underlying data structure. -> Make the modding framework support this addition as much as possible and maybe someone is insane enough to write a server-only mod for area interaction permission :)

Board-Preview: Oh well you already found a neat solution for the ingame board previews (that was: Setting-For-Duration + Button-if-too-long + Async). Idk what you as final choice made, maybe add a thumbnail to boards which are already too large when exporting them. But not for the smaller ones to keep files small.

Naming: I am still not use to the terms peg and blotter. Funnily, since I never ever heard both before (non-native speaker). I would have used the terms pin and diode, but I guess I leave that to the native speakers. Funnily the German translation also uses a linkwise weird word for peg.

Multiplayer: Portals In minecraft there are server-networks, basically different servers for different features, but idk if you know the downside: Proxies. In MC one has to setup a proxy which players connect to and then they can be routed between servers. However if you have a server on two different machines in different parts of the world, that is a long unnecessary extra latency and bandwidth requirement. Thus I would suggest a feature that the server can request a client to automatically switch to some other host. The client would not be rerouted, but switch directly to the other server (even if its just a port change). This allows to have far more complex network types, and even allows ingame inviting to your own server. Here check out my server: ‘/invite [username] blabla.bla:12345’. For security reasons a client should get a prompt which lets him decide if he wants to trust this source (no prompt in future), or just accept this request or ignore further requests for this target. Would be quite epic and open a lot of possibilities <3

@Vykori2 years ago (edited2 years ago)

TUNG has board mirroring btw, although it doesn’t work with modded components (not an issue for you) and it doesn’t work if your board has any daughter-boards. Default keys are N and M I think?

I agree with your ideas for board rotation controls. I suggested the same. But after playing TUNG for a few hours, it gets easier to use tbh. I don’t think the current implementation in LW is final, especially since it has bugs. So I won’t comment on that until the devs do.

Undo/redo history will not come in LW 1.0 unfortunately, although the devs have talked about how it will work when it’s added in 1.1. I’d love a history tree too, but idk if this is possible with multiplayer servers having many people building/undoing on the same contraption (and there’s also a planned admin undo, which is user-independent).

literally all the other issues you had about TUNG were fixed for LW 1.0 :)

for the challenge mode thing, I wanted something similar. Apparently when the website sharing hub is available, you will be able to filter/sort by component counts, so inverter-only builds would still be a thing (at least that’s how I plan to play the game most of the time)

For multiplayer, I loved the idea of having each user own their own world, instead of owning their own plot. I know this won’t be a thing in 1.0 without mods, but it makes a lot of sense for LW. I also love the social interaction of large multiplayer servers, and being able to look at your friend’s plot while they’re offline, so hopefully this comes in the future.

The name blotter was removed. It was replaced with short delayer which is this tiny component in LW. They can be stacked right next to each other and I love them.

@Ecconia2 years ago

Thanks for reading this madness. And hopefully for answering most of my questions. :)

@jimyy2 years ago

thank you for your knowledge, great ecconioid